Community Forums > General > Suggestions & New Game Support > Plausible Fix for CS Rating

Plausible Fix for CS Rating

 [VCOM]Pestilence_


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Posted 10 April 2013 - 4:13 pm
Bam wrote:
The current system works quite well.

Your main argument to change it to your idea is actually called PT by our rules.
So the current system would work perfectly, if we would have better ways to detect these happenings(e.g. YOU guys discovering more PTs, and maybe some better backend automatic detection).


The system works and has done for the last few years. It can be improved greatly at the same token.

My main argument it to create a more realistic version of ELO for CS. It shouldn't be reliant on us (community) finding the point traders. Voobly don't often stick to their guns when handing out punishments relating to the ladder systems, seen too many over turned.

This is a suggestion I've formed from other people's feedback and it's getting a lot of feedback response. There's obvious room for improvement with the current rating system, as well as allowing newer players to merge into the community without losing them a week into playing here. Even the beginners lobby is full of noob bashers...

Bam wrote:
If you're saying, that this is not important or relevant for you, with that arguments you brought (see next quote), sorry but then you didn't understand the point of a team game AT ALL.

I could form a counter-argument and draw this out and make it off-topic. Don't patronize me on the points of team gaming.
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 [Eot_]Alex


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Posted 10 April 2013 - 4:16 pm
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[Eot_]Alex likes this.
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 Bam


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Posted 10 April 2013 - 4:21 pm
The system works and has done for the last few years. It can be improved greatly at the same token.

My main argument it to create a more realistic version of ELO for CS. It shouldn't be reliant on us (community) finding the point traders. Voobly don't often stick to their guns when handing out punishments relating to the ladder systems, seen too many over turned.

This is a suggestion I've formed from other people's feedback and it's getting a lot of feedback response. There's obvious room for improvement with the current rating system, as well as allowing newer players to merge into the community without losing them a week into playing here. Even the beginners lobby is full of noob bashers...

So wouldn't it solve that problem, if we would only let new players into the new players lobby (for example) ?

Sadly my main questions were ignored:
Quote:
Some of you are saying the current system does not work.
Please explain why do you think so?
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 [VCOM]Pestilence_


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Posted 10 April 2013 - 4:30 pm
Why don't you guys introduce that then for the new players lobby? Or have you done so?

Again, I said the current system has worked for the last few years. This is a suggestion that I and others see to IMPROVE the current system by making modifications, not completely removing the original system altogether.

Also, it's not a matter of the system not working, it's a matter of the governing body not taking enough action to ensure the system is a fair reflection of what it's designed for. You don't see top ELO rated chess players pulling out the Estigma moves to maintain a 2700 rating.
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 Negatory


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Posted 10 April 2013 - 4:52 pm
So easy to fix the estigma fake rate problem, -400 points difference in 1v1 = 0 points
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 Bam


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Edited 10 April 2013 - 4:54 pm by Bam
And I agree with you partially, but, in consideration of what I said before, I don't think your suggestion is the right way to fix those problems.

I think your suggestion would cause more problems and less quality (as i stated before with reasons).

My opinion is, that early discovery and prevention are the best keys to defend against these problems.
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 [VCOM]Pestilence_


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Posted 10 April 2013 - 4:57 pm
I agree the prevention and early discovery is best, but the prevention doesn't happen. It won't happen all of a sudden because of this topic. Sometimes change is the best medicine.
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 _LC_Mau5_RTK


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Posted 12 April 2013 - 9:36 pm
great idea
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 ['RB']ZottenDree


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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:53 pm
It's still not going to happen Ben.
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 RivaL_ReNeGaDe


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Edited 16 April 2013 - 9:37 am by RivaL_ReNeGaDe
CS - General

Wins / Loses / Tied


Still keeps ratings of your W/L/T ratio and this in general for ALL maps in CS. Simple, yet elegant. Call it CS Global or something. Why have 5+ different map types when all you see are people hosting CBA and Bloods, but all the Blood players are 2k. This discourages anyone from playing. This also discourages other players who want to play other type of maps. We have a rating for certain maps and most of the people don't want to play them due to the sheer terror of being called out about it based on their ratings.

This will keep the point ****s happy, but give opportunity for players who want to try something else.
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 RivaL_ReNeGaDe


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Posted 16 April 2013 - 10:29 am
Actually, the best solution would be to REMOVE ratings from CS, as it makes no sense to have ratings in part of a game that sometimes clearly wins on triggers alone. That's like making a DoTa version on CS and rating it because you can kill some tower/ enemy NPC's / against other players and win/lose. Sounds pretty lame in my opinion.

If you are not getting resources, teching, managing your army based on your economy; scouting, knowledge of builds, rushes, etc., then it should NOT be rated. This aspect has been for any RTS game in general. That is like having arcade maps on SCII of the top 10 maps and has a bunch of people win based solely on triggers. If this building can mass this unit in 10 seconds and kill someone, it should be rated!!!!!! /sarcasm off

For it to be a normal thing here on CS makes absolutely no sense. I've never seen any 'custom' maps on any RTS as a rated phenomenon except for AoC on Voobly. It makes no sense. Yes, people can factor that microing skills play into CS maps, and so it does in regular maps too, except they add a few hundred more factors into it.

In my opinion CS, or custom maps of any type of game is there to be unique, laid back, and to have fun from the norm that strains people trying to be the best for that league.

Example: If we took the best AoC players in RM ( DauT/TheViper) and you put them in a CBA/Blood match, you’re going to tell me they won’t win that match? Blood maps are solely based on triggers that spawn the same unit until you get enough kills to advance onto the next unit (most of the maps). CBA is based on kills to gain the next level tech. Villagers = building stuff, etc., etc.

Now, if we had those individuals in here and if you tell me that they will lose against some of the top players, you’re only kidding yourself. These people are mico’ing so fast on their screen, it’s like watching SCII MLG sport games and watching Koreans rip any European/American ass solely based on Micro-Management. You give TheViper 10 archers against another player with 10 archers (blood map, for example, and he’ll win. He’ll out micro him.

But CS is a fine example of ratings because it’s solely based on skills, right? When did TRIGGERS become a form of skill? I know I’m about to be flamed on this opinion of mine, but I strongly disagree that any form of triggers in a game, shows the true potential behind anyone’s skill. The true skill is how well you can manage your resources, an army, micro’ing that army at the same time establishing your own defenses, currency, and reproduction all within the matter of seconds. CBA you sit there sucking your thumb while Goth is on your gates and you’re brits. YES! That is our current rating system for CS. Let me get lucky with Persians against Mayans. Woooooooooo, skilled based gaming!

I’m also not saying you can’t be good at CS. Micro’ing your army is a big bonus in many blood maps. If you know how to attack, flank them, and any other unit movements; you can easily win a lot of games compared to people who just run their units against your wall, or patrolling units. But, if you took a top rated CS player for example and you placed him against a 1650 RM player, he would be clueless. The only thing he might be good at would be micro’ing his army, but even at that it wouldn’t help him for micro’ing his defenses, economy, reproduction; walling, or other RM related factors. Not saying they couldn’t, but I’ve talked to some CS players who went RM and they say it’s a whole new game going from CS to RM. So many more factors come into play.

I just love CS games, but I wish the ratings were off. In my opinion if the ratings were abolished, then I truly believe more people would be willing to play more matches, more different types of matches, and people would be less ego-maniac about it.

This is my opinion, take it as you see fit. /flame!
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 [ViCiouS]TheAussieOne


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Posted 16 April 2013 - 8:08 pm
Viper and Daut would excel at anything RTS related I think, micro related and what such. They're talents who practice religiously. You put Daut/Viper in a 1v1 Smosh against me, I'll beat them 10 times out of 10. Vice-versa on Arabia. I can safely say that and use Geen as an example. He had a big CS/Rm background when he started learning Smosh. He practiced with me a lot (maybe we played ~50 games). It took him at least 20-30 games to start picking up odd wins. After 50+ games (plus the other games he practiced versus others), we'd be roughly 50-50, and that's from someone who had huge experience in CS and has showcased their skill in Rm at 2k level.

Rm to Dm to CS in incomparable. Speaking of Rm and CS, Rm is far more strategical and is played at a slower game speed to allow for more micro, easier econ-management and macro-management. CS on the other hand, is more like a FPS style, where once the map knowledge is down-pat, it's basically a full on rush and reaction/reflex game. I view maps like 4v4 random civ CBA as a relaxed game, or the RPGs/TDs. If you get a quality game of experts playing in bloods/CBs, I find it more intense than playing Rm. But that's just me, others may find it different.

While I agree that CS never merited ratings in the first place, you're incorrect about ratings on other games. League of Legends uses the ELO algorithm for measuring skill just like RTS games. LoL is basically a unique version of DotA/CS.

However, CS won't lose ratings because the CS community have become comfortable with them. I'm fine with that, because I can see the skill points in CS. I'd like to see the skill reflected better, since I'm very competitive with games. However with the current system, the only ladder I care for is Bloods since we have a tight-nit community and know what to expect from one another to makes good games.

Yeah, it's a whole new game going from CS to Rm. So logically, it goes the other way for an Rmer coming to CS. I'd say Viper/Jordan are the only players I've seen from Rm (thanks to streaming) who have the speed to find a change to CS quite easy [hence why I think they found Dm easy enough to adapt to and learn]. Most other top Rmers I've seen over stream look a lot slower and more precise with their actions and strategy, something that doesn't transition to CS very well.

Forgive the post, I tend to go on a rant when I completely disagree with another opinion.

Also, with CS2 micro, their APM is over-rated because they make so many useless clicks/actions for the sake of it. They're fast though.
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 RivaL_ReNeGaDe


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Posted 16 April 2013 - 8:46 pm
No worries. I think we all have a little built up emotions when it comes to ratings. Some prefer none; others prefer the old system, and some like the new system. When discussing about ratings on Voobly, it would be no different than talking about religion or politics... at times. A lot of different opinion and a lot of people are entitled to those opinions. I never played LoL to know their ratings system, so thanks for the heads up.

I agree what you've said in your second paragraph. It's why I've always loved CS. Yes, RM might have more factors, and you might have to be clicky happy to ensure that all the necessary factors are in play or things go bad... quickly. From a FPS standpoint: I think RM is like a sniper. You have to be precise on your decisions, but at the same time quick at what you do, or you'll lose. CS is like spray and pray around corners constantly (That's me :P). It gets intense depending who you are playing against and which map you’re on.

CBA gets intense when you have 4 people within your castle’s range and you’re trying to keep your walls up lol. I really don’t like CBA, but it seems like that’s what everyone plays. I haven’t touched a blood map in ages. I’m so bad at the maps now I’m too embarrassed to join any. I know the community is nit-tight for Bloods and that’s probably why I don’t join any maps. Since all the players are ranked 2k+ for bloods, why bother? I’ve played a few bloods on AoEII:HD and it just feels so right. Maybe once I get my head out of my ass and become sharper on my Blood skills, then I might try again on Voobly. I’m just glad there is another option for me without looking so terrible with “ratings” behind my portrait.

I was never trying to discourage CS players of their skills. There are skills in CS, they just differ so much from RM. Maybe I have personal issues with triggers being in a game that portrays ratings? Maybe that’s a pet peeve of mine and I need to seek help. I don’t know.

Like I said, if I offended someone, I apologize, but I guess that’s the rant talking and not logical thinking at times when I place comparisons about two separate divisions of a game.
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 [I3acI]B


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Posted 17 April 2013 - 5:03 am
I know the community is nit-tight for Bloods and that’s probably why I don’t join any maps. Since all the players are ranked 2k+ for bloods, why bother?


I wouldn't concern yourself over anyone who is ranked 2k bloods. The odds are they are either one mappers or noob bashers. Access to blood rooms is basically like the zone was, you have to be known to someone.


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